Why would anyone say that? Those are just shorter ways of saying things that are in the book.
Granted in the book Eowyn is not dumb enough to waste time taking off her helmet and saying it in the two seconds before the enormous undead wizard with a flail the size of a truck stands up and clobbers her. But that’s just Hollywood being Hollywood.
You wouldn’t believe the amount of pedantry I’ve seen some fans be capable of 🤣 (TBF I also have some amount of pedantry, but I would like to think I save it for things that are important, like why they should’ve had Tom Bombadil in the movies, rather than grumbling about a character saying a shortened version of what they said in the book.)
Much as I love the hobbits and Pippin…nah. Given that the story was based on Tolkien’s love for Germanic and Nordic mythology, a shieldmaiden was an integral part of the story. And he wrote an epic storyline for Eowyn.
Great analysis. Without these moments of levity, LOTR would be a big drag (like, for example, the Wheel of Time TV series). Jackson's trilogy walks the fine line of humor extraordinarily well.
Also, to be fair to MCU, there would be a lot more cringey lines in LOTR movies if there were 34 of them.
I haven't watched The Wheel of Time (read the books but just haven't gotten around to it) but agree that the humor helps lift LOTR and keep it from being just one big dour slog lol
With WB planning more movies we'll see if/when the LOTR franchise gets to MCU status. The day may come, but it is not this day, though!
I may have mentioned this, but here I go again. When the Rings movies were in production, the online fandom got its hands on some dialogue from an early version of the script. Every bit of it was cringe. McKellen kept a blog at the time, so I sent him the bad dialogue and asked if this was the level of quality we could expect. He wrote back, saying he prided himself on having a keen ear for inappropriate dialogue and assuring the fans that Gandalf, at least, would not be speaking any jarring nonsense. Of course he did not, and the bad dialogue never appeared in the films.
I’d hate for the public at large to read my initial drafts. Also, as an actor, I get to see scripts in their earlier stages. The dialogue can be awkward sometimes, even for projects with good writers and directors. That’s just part of the process. Also, delivery matters.
I'd love to hijack any Tolkien line in the written literature by changing *anything* followed up with, "What the fresh hell?"
For example, maybe when the Eldar are partying it up and don't notice Melkor and Ungoliant scuttling deviously to the Trees, and suddenly the lights and joy go out. A beat ensues. "What the fresh hell?" a voice utters.
Yes, but the whole Paths of the Dead comedy relief from Gimli didn't work and I'm glad they cut it out of the theatrical cut. It totally takes you out of it (as does that weird skull scene).
Source: me, who watched it with my 4 year old last week. RotK was my favorite when watching as a teen, but it really is the weakest of the 3 extended editions.
I hadn't really considered the humor in the LOTR films (probably bc it was done so well!) until I read a faith biography on Tolkien that talked about how Tolkien was raised by an Order that was given to a bit of humor, as it were, and so was Tolkien apparently. In thinking of Tolkien that way I thought about the trilogy and realized how important humor was. The humor did save the films from being too bleak or too sappy, and i think provide a nice dose of reality bc life is just funny sometimes.
Well done for explaining how the details matter. And how the internet cultural context colours our perception of these stories.
Though I can't be in full agreement about Gimlee. I find they made his character too much of the clown. In the books, he is quite noble and his stature isn't a factor. I find it a failed opportunity to have played up mostly for laughs in the movies.
One or two jokes would have been sufficient to establish the playful jabbing between him and Legolas but it just keeps going on and on, constantly they reduce Gimless to a joke. Gimlee can't run fast lol. Gimlee can't hold his liquor against Legolas lol (look he's cross eyed and falls down, it's fuuuneeee!). Gimlee is short lol. Gimlee is stuck under a Warg, lol.
If this had been balanced with more scenes of him being formidable in battle or a charmer like in the books... but they simply didn't do that.
I think what also makes it really good is that they give you just enough time to almost forget the Cave Troll, or wonder where it is. It doesn't just barge down the gate as soon as he's said it, and that adds to the building tension. You know there's a cave troll coming, but the goblins are already swarming inside, the battle is happening already. That's what makes it great!
Humor can be a great part of fantasy. In my stories, it's usually levity between old friends that snipe at each other to pass the time. I even write it off as the rest of the group has no idea what's going on.
It seems like Boromir is saying it to himself. The vibe is, ‘Of course. Why the hell not?’ Exasperated. I can imagine someone who is not in a movie saying it. It’s not brilliant, but it isn’t distracting. The writer is correct to credit Bean with this. There’s no wink, discordant with their peril. Only exhaustion.
I will fight anyone who claims “they have a cave troll” and “I am no man!” are cringe, lol.
Why would anyone say that? Those are just shorter ways of saying things that are in the book.
Granted in the book Eowyn is not dumb enough to waste time taking off her helmet and saying it in the two seconds before the enormous undead wizard with a flail the size of a truck stands up and clobbers her. But that’s just Hollywood being Hollywood.
You wouldn’t believe the amount of pedantry I’ve seen some fans be capable of 🤣 (TBF I also have some amount of pedantry, but I would like to think I save it for things that are important, like why they should’ve had Tom Bombadil in the movies, rather than grumbling about a character saying a shortened version of what they said in the book.)
I always thought the "I am no man," should have been a hobbit line, and it should have been pippin that stabbed the witch king.
Much as I love the hobbits and Pippin…nah. Given that the story was based on Tolkien’s love for Germanic and Nordic mythology, a shieldmaiden was an integral part of the story. And he wrote an epic storyline for Eowyn.
That is true.
Great analysis. Without these moments of levity, LOTR would be a big drag (like, for example, the Wheel of Time TV series). Jackson's trilogy walks the fine line of humor extraordinarily well.
Also, to be fair to MCU, there would be a lot more cringey lines in LOTR movies if there were 34 of them.
I haven't watched The Wheel of Time (read the books but just haven't gotten around to it) but agree that the humor helps lift LOTR and keep it from being just one big dour slog lol
With WB planning more movies we'll see if/when the LOTR franchise gets to MCU status. The day may come, but it is not this day, though!
I may have mentioned this, but here I go again. When the Rings movies were in production, the online fandom got its hands on some dialogue from an early version of the script. Every bit of it was cringe. McKellen kept a blog at the time, so I sent him the bad dialogue and asked if this was the level of quality we could expect. He wrote back, saying he prided himself on having a keen ear for inappropriate dialogue and assuring the fans that Gandalf, at least, would not be speaking any jarring nonsense. Of course he did not, and the bad dialogue never appeared in the films.
I’d hate for the public at large to read my initial drafts. Also, as an actor, I get to see scripts in their earlier stages. The dialogue can be awkward sometimes, even for projects with good writers and directors. That’s just part of the process. Also, delivery matters.
I love the reflection that the humor in the writing serves a point, but isn't *the* point.
I thought it was a bit silly as a teenager, but now (as a thirtysomething) it is a *mood.* They have a cave troll. What fresh hell.
I'd love to hijack any Tolkien line in the written literature by changing *anything* followed up with, "What the fresh hell?"
For example, maybe when the Eldar are partying it up and don't notice Melkor and Ungoliant scuttling deviously to the Trees, and suddenly the lights and joy go out. A beat ensues. "What the fresh hell?" a voice utters.
“what fresh hell is this??” Is the typical phrasing, in my mind
Yes, but the whole Paths of the Dead comedy relief from Gimli didn't work and I'm glad they cut it out of the theatrical cut. It totally takes you out of it (as does that weird skull scene).
Source: me, who watched it with my 4 year old last week. RotK was my favorite when watching as a teen, but it really is the weakest of the 3 extended editions.
I hadn't really considered the humor in the LOTR films (probably bc it was done so well!) until I read a faith biography on Tolkien that talked about how Tolkien was raised by an Order that was given to a bit of humor, as it were, and so was Tolkien apparently. In thinking of Tolkien that way I thought about the trilogy and realized how important humor was. The humor did save the films from being too bleak or too sappy, and i think provide a nice dose of reality bc life is just funny sometimes.
I think “They have a cafe troll” is masterful.
Whereas I don’t even remember the Star Wars sequel scene you are talking about!And I’ve never watched those SW movies more than once.
Whereas The Fellowship is my favorite movie of all time.
A cafe troll? Because meat's back on the menu, boys?
Well done for explaining how the details matter. And how the internet cultural context colours our perception of these stories.
Though I can't be in full agreement about Gimlee. I find they made his character too much of the clown. In the books, he is quite noble and his stature isn't a factor. I find it a failed opportunity to have played up mostly for laughs in the movies.
One or two jokes would have been sufficient to establish the playful jabbing between him and Legolas but it just keeps going on and on, constantly they reduce Gimless to a joke. Gimlee can't run fast lol. Gimlee can't hold his liquor against Legolas lol (look he's cross eyed and falls down, it's fuuuneeee!). Gimlee is short lol. Gimlee is stuck under a Warg, lol.
If this had been balanced with more scenes of him being formidable in battle or a charmer like in the books... but they simply didn't do that.
I agree with the premsie of the article, though I never thought the line was humorous.
Great read!
I think what also makes it really good is that they give you just enough time to almost forget the Cave Troll, or wonder where it is. It doesn't just barge down the gate as soon as he's said it, and that adds to the building tension. You know there's a cave troll coming, but the goblins are already swarming inside, the battle is happening already. That's what makes it great!
I never particularly liked that line. But, its a very british thing to say, id think?
Humor can be a great part of fantasy. In my stories, it's usually levity between old friends that snipe at each other to pass the time. I even write it off as the rest of the group has no idea what's going on.
It seems like Boromir is saying it to himself. The vibe is, ‘Of course. Why the hell not?’ Exasperated. I can imagine someone who is not in a movie saying it. It’s not brilliant, but it isn’t distracting. The writer is correct to credit Bean with this. There’s no wink, discordant with their peril. Only exhaustion.